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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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 Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: Strange question...pictures of clutch parts... |
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Can any one help me with some clear pictures of the "bmw-markings" on the clutch assembly?
Tbf I have no clue where to look for...
(i have vibrations in my engine after a clucht change).
thanks!! |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Strange question...pictures of clutch parts... |
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| tmoons wrote: | Can any one help me with some clear pictures of the "bmw-markings" on the clutch assembly?
Tbf I have no clue where to look for...
(i have vibrations in my engine after a clucht change).
thanks!! |
I can I think.
I'll get back to you tomorrow.
PS tell me more, what exactly did you do on your bike in the "clutch change"?
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: |
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One more thing, look here http://www.dch.co.za/motorbikes/K1100Man/K1100LT.pdf
Chapter 21 Clutch on page 21.8 Did you use 11-2-800?
Page 21.9, did you use 21-2-670?
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Strange question...pictures of clutch parts... |
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| Shoganai wrote: | | tmoons wrote: | Can any one help me with some clear pictures of the "bmw-markings" on the clutch assembly?
Tbf I have no clue where to look for...
(i have vibrations in my engine after a clucht change).
thanks!! |
I can I think.
I'll get back to you tomorrow.
PS tell me more, what exactly did you do on your bike in the "clutch change"? |
Shoganai,
What I did was:
Change the main seal behind the clutch…
I supported the bike underneath the rear sub frame (using an A frame), took everything of (wheel, drive shaft and so on.)
Than took the clutch apart, including marking it…
Than I slightly damaged that central brass bushing in the out put shaft (a minor bur, took that of, push rod still slides in and out creating a vacuum.)
Replaced the seal, put it all back together but I manage to wash the markings of the clutch parts and had to rely on some photos I took to get it in the same (please note I do not write RIGHT) order back together.
The gearbox went back on, no real hassle, but I had to “pull the box to the engine” using the 6 Alan head bolts (the plate was aligned, the pushrod worked fine) and all look peachy.
Lube all the splines as I was there any way…. But did not lube the large metal ring underneath the spring disc.
Clutch works great, but that vibration at about 5000 RPM is just making my hands go to sleep….
My plan now is to take it back apart, look for those mystery marks and put it back together. |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:28 am Post subject: |
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11-2-800? Is that the locking plate?
No, I used a small end pin from a Renault 1.7 engine to fit between the flange and the clutch items.
21-2-670 ? which one is that?
I used a socked 13 in combination with a Philips head screwdriver to align the plate (this is all that does right? aligning the plate in the middle? |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:44 am Post subject: Re: Strange question...pictures of clutch parts... |
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| tmoons wrote: |
Shoganai,
What I did was: (clip)
My plan now is to take it back apart, look for those mystery marks and put it back together. |
Cool!!
Ok, I've replaced a clutch plate before, so I only know a little about this.
I don't recall special BMW markings. I do recall marking (page 21.9) the clutch housing, drive disc and the pressure plate with a Sharpie.
I guess they are there, but I don't recall seeing them.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| tmoons wrote: |
11-2-800? Is that the locking plate?
No, I used a small end pin from a Renault 1.7 engine to fit between the flange and the clutch items.
21-2-670 ? which one is that?
I used a socked 13 in combination with a Philips head screwdriver to align the plate (this is all that does right? aligning the plate in the middle? |
21-2-670 is the "L" shaped plate w/ the three holes in it.
#3 in the diagram is the centering pin.
11-2-800 is called "secure retaining fixture" It hold stuff in place while you're puting it together. (items 2,3, and 4)
"middle" is a very EXACT point when you're talking about something spinning. Think a washing machine out of balance.   (it a girl thing)
Tolerances for this kind of thing must be VERY close.
I suggest borrowing or buying these tools and just align things as closely as possibe and your problem should be solved.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Strange question...pictures of clutch parts... |
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| Shoganai wrote: | | tmoons wrote: |
Shoganai,
What I did was: (clip)
My plan now is to take it back apart, look for those mystery marks and put it back together. |
Cool!!
Ok, I've replaced a clutch plate before, so I only know a little about this.
I don't recall special BMW markings. I do recall marking (page 21.9) the clutch housing, drive disc and the pressure plate with a Sharpie.
I guess they are there, but I don't recall seeing them. |
That whole 120 degree thing, i talked to a local BMW tech, he used to work for the main dealer, but now works in his own shop, and he told me he is 100% sure the whole clutch is being balanced and rotating the the items should not make any difference.
not sure what to believe any more... |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Shoganai wrote: | | tmoons wrote: |
11-2-800? Is that the locking plate?
No, I used a small end pin from a Renault 1.7 engine to fit between the flange and the clutch items.
21-2-670 ? which one is that?
I used a socked 13 in combination with a Philips head screwdriver to align the plate (this is all that does right? aligning the plate in the middle? |
21-2-670 is the "L" shaped plate w/ the three holes in it.
#3 in the diagram is the centering pin.
11-2-800 is called "secure retaining fixture" It hold stuff in place while you're puting it together. (items 2,3, and 4)
"middle" is a very EXACT point when you're talking about something spinning. Think a washing machine out of balance. (it a girl thing)
Tolerances for this kind of thing must be VERY close.
I suggest borrowing or buying these tools and just align things as closely as possibe and your problem should be solved. |
Sorry, but I have to disagree on the centring thing with the special tool…
The only thing it does I getting the friction plate dead center so the input shaft of the gearbox goes in nice and easy.
But I would like to be proven wrong… but you’ll have to come up with something better than “the book says so”.
The next thing is the spring plate, it is also centred by the tool, BUT once you use the clutch the first time, both the spring and the friction plate are “released” and will balance themselves somewhere completely different (if they would choose to do so  ) than where the tool put them. |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Strange question...pictures of clutch parts... |
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| tmoons wrote: |
That whole 120 degree thing, i talked to a local BMW tech, he used to work for the main dealer, but now works in his own shop, and he told me he is 100% sure the whole clutch is being balanced and rotating the the items should not make any difference.
not sure what to believe any more... |
I'm not a BMW tech, so bare that in mind.
When I think on the 'whole 120 degree thing' I look at the three connecting points (using the six bolts on the housing cover). There are 120 degrees between them totalling 360 degrees.
If it were not important to assure centering alignment, why doing anything on page 21.10?
Keep this in mind, yes EVERYTHING on the clutch assembly is all bolted and spinning together. What you are aligning is where the clutch disc engages with the input shaft. If the clutch plate is wallering against the input shaft, it could lead to some serious damage.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| tmoons wrote: |
Sorry, but I have to disagree on the centring thing with the special tool…
The only thing it does I getting the friction plate dead center so the input shaft of the gearbox goes in nice and easy.
But I would like to be proven wrong… but you’ll have to come up with something better than “the book says so”.
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No worries dear And I don't know enough to prove you wrong.
I'm learning also.
When I had to do this job, I was broke down in High Level, Alberta and didn't have any special tools. I cracked open the old tranny and used it's input shaft to do everything those two 'special tools' do. And still put on 80k miles after that.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Ok, quoting the book,
"Caution. As noted during removal, the clutch cover and pressure plate must be installed in a specific arrangement in order to form a balanced assembly. The relationship of these two parts must be correct or SEVERE VIBRATION will result, leading to costly clutch and / or engine damage.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9yS9p2d3sv0C&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=bmw+k1100+clutch+alignment+marks&source=bl&ots=9-DL-DmM63&sig=VVus6C9DJRIFUFllf9BgS0geZ70&hl=en&ei=JMDVSeaDHJSclQf2qYnODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4
Ok, so I understand why I marked the housing and plates when I did this job in 2006. If you can't find the marks, this job is going to SUCK and not in the good kinda sucking either. 
There are 6, count them SIX possible combinations of the housing and pressure plate!
I guess the good news is you only have five more to try. 
Shit man, I'm sorry.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: |
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This is all about a R-engine.
Any chance to find the same about an K engine?
Well I have the option to get the whole item balanced for 75 euro, only drawback is it is gone for a week.
I think i will start the tear down this afternoon.
And what about the markings you where able to show me? (you mentioned something in the first post..) |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| tmoons wrote: | This is all about a R-engine.
Any chance to find the same about an K engine?
Well I have the option to get the whole item balanced for 75 euro, only drawback is it is gone for a week.
I think i will start the tear down this afternoon.
And what about the markings you where able to show me? (you mentioned something in the first post..) |
They should be in the same area on a K clutch assemble.
At least there is the option for balancing it. I think I would do the rather than the alternative. Ouch!
I dug thru my pics of the clutch job I did but I didn't find any pics that showed the marking. I really don't recall seeing them and that's why I had to mark them at the time. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Let me know how this turns out.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Shoganai wrote: | | tmoons wrote: | This is all about a R-engine.
Any chance to find the same about an K engine?
Well I have the option to get the whole item balanced for 75 euro, only drawback is it is gone for a week.
I think i will start the tear down this afternoon.
And what about the markings you where able to show me? (you mentioned something in the first post..) |
They should be in the same area on a K clutch assemble.
At least there is the option for balancing it. I think I would do the rather than the alternative. Ouch!
I dug thru my pics of the clutch job I did but I didn't find any pics that showed the marking. I really don't recall seeing them and that's why I had to mark them at the time. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Let me know how this turns out. |
Will do!
I'll start of with another TB balance session,
exhaust header - head connection (all should be air tight)
frame-engine mountings (there is an order in which it all should be connected and i got a tip telling me to support the belly pan, and not the rear sub-frame
and than i will and tear it all appart, also inspecting everything i find and in the end have the whole thing balanced if i do not find anything conclusive!
keep you posted (if any one has other ideas, please let me know!) |
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Shoganai
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like fun.
It would be cool to see pictures posted about your project if you have time.
BTW it's 0500 here, what time is it there?
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Shoganai wrote: | Sounds like fun.
It would be cool to see pictures posted about your project if you have time.
BTW it's 0500 here, what time is it there? |
Just before noon (11:20 in the morning).
super sunny wheater out side and i am planning to leave the office at 0100 (in about 2 hours ) To go home and fiddle with my K again. |
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tmoons
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well i took it all apart. (by myself).
No mechinacal failures, except the bushing in the middel of the out put shaft (wich i am going to replace) It is a 6X12X12 mm bush, in a hole 23 mm deep if i can't get it out, i'll just push it in.
I will get the whole thing balanced next week. (I hope the might be open on saturday, but i fear the worst.)
Another shitty item is that the no. 4 header pipe broke off the collector...
a few calls later i found a specialize frame builder that has a jig to weld the item back up (including suport braces to keep it from breaking in the future.)
This company will recieve the item tomorrow and it is ready coming wednesday, best thing is that is close to home 
I had a real hard look at where i might see the marks made by those germans.... i think i found some (one is a real give away, as it is very visible on the back plate (the silver disk) i found (what i think is) another on the most backwards (to the rear of the bike) plate and i THINK (but this is a real small and insignificant one) i found the one on the middle one aswell.... if these are THE ONES... the whole thing was WRONG....
but i guess we'll never know...
PS sorry for the BAD english... i do not have a spell checker handy here.. (well a dutch one... maar ik gok dat dat niet veel zal uitmaken als ik die op deze tekst los laat ) |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| tmoons wrote: | Well i took it all apart. (by myself).
i found the one on the middle one aswell.... if these are THE ONES... the whole thing was WRONG....
but i guess we'll never know...
PS sorry for the BAD english... i do not have a spell checker handy here.. (well a dutch one... maar ik gok dat dat niet veel zal uitmaken als ik die op deze tekst los laat ) |
How cool is that!!???
A female nurse in America pulling a night shift and a guy in an office, possibly in the Netherlands, chat up the finer points of deep motorcycle repair.
Congrats on wrenching it yourself and I wish you the best of luck.
Well, your english is WAY better than my Dutch.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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Shoganai
Biscuit Fluffer
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 2234
Location: Culpeper,VA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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You made me look
tmoons, "maar ik gok dat dat niet veel zal uitmaken als ik die op deze tekst los laat"
Babblefish, "but I gamble that that will not determine much if I leave that on this text loose"
It's not accurate, but I caught the context.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak
The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT
Nana korobi ya oki |
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