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Mystery Electric Issue?

 
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bloomy_bmw



Joined: 17 Apr 2016
Posts: 8
Location: Greater Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject: Mystery Electric Issue? Reply with quote

It's a beautiful sunny day in Washington. Went to start the bike, but the headlight would not turn on; horn does not work; holding the left or right blinker causes the flashers to turn on (as long as you press the button); and engaging the flasher toggle switch works, but when you disengage the toggle switch the right turn blinker remains on. Confused

I've checked the fuses box on the right hand side of the bike, everything looked okay. Not sure if it's related, but the battery has had a drain over winter.

No way I'm driving without the above, too many crazy people out here!

Do they share a common ground? Any suggestions?

Thanks Smile
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'94 K1100RS aka "Fräulein"
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Inge K.
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 458
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The commutator in the starter needs to be cleaned for carbon dust, and/or the starter brushes is worn.
A good idea to renew them while you have the starter opened up.
Search the net for "dirty starter + LSR (load shedding relay)"...it's a well known problem.
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bloomy_bmw



Joined: 17 Apr 2016
Posts: 8
Location: Greater Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inge, thanks a ton for the direction! For testing, I swapped the Horn Relay and LSR relay, the lights came on, and blinkers worked like a charm. However, when I tried to start the bike in this setup, the bike did not have enough power to start (as if the battery was too weak). When I put the original LSR relay back in it's place, the bike fired right up.

Forgive my n00bness here, but does that mean 1). I would need to replace the LSR (as confirmed by the lights turning on by using the known working horn relay), and 2). Clean the starter of carbon dust/renew the brushes (as the bike did not want to start as possibly something is grounding out?)

I looked into it a little more, and I think this is the same issue mentioned in this post here Smilehttp://k11og.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12644&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=renew+brush ... but I can't explain why the battery seems to lack juice with the functional relay in place Confused
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Inge K.
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 458
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the starter turns with one relay but not the other it's just a coincidence, as this relay doesn't help or prevent the bike to start.
You can remove it if you want, and the bike should still start (but a lot of this and that won't function).

The purpose with the relay is to cut all unneceserry consumers when you push the start button, so you have max power to the starter.
The relay functions like this; the relay coil is grounded through the starter, the coil pulls the contacts together so a lot of this and that gets power....the moment you push the start button you get positive current (to the starter) on the negative side of the relay coil which looses the magnetism and opens the contacts.
The bike starts, you remove the thumb from the starter button.....the relay coil is grounded again and a lot of this and that is getting power again.

So with a dirty starter commutator and/or worn brushes, you don't get proper ground to neither the relay or the starter itself.
But when the contact between the brushes and the commutator is in the borderline, both the relay and starter can function in one moment and malfunction the next.
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bloomy_bmw



Joined: 17 Apr 2016
Posts: 8
Location: Greater Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: suspecting ground Reply with quote

Inge - Thanks for the insight! I had troubles getting to the starter, and residents in the apartment complex were giving me weird stares as I tried to get to it Shocked . I took the bike into a guy in Tacoma WA and had a rebuilt start put in, and new relay (did the relay myself). This seem to remedy the issue for a little bit, but it slowly began to return to it's old ways.

I found a post on another fourm that described my continued symptoms to a T. I'm thinking there's bound to be another ground issue on the bike. Does anyone out there know of confirmed ground locations on a '94 K1100??? Smile
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Scott_Anderson
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 3071
Location: Central Iowa, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main ground connections are:
under the fuel tank near the steering headstock
mounting bolt at the rear of the starter
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1995 K1100LT 0302044
1997 R1100RT ZC62149
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
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bloomy_bmw



Joined: 17 Apr 2016
Posts: 8
Location: Greater Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott, thanks for the locations. Under the tank looked brand new. The mounts at the rear of the starter were dirty, so I cleaned them up, but the bike seems to still be having troubles.

I hooked up the multi-meter and found the following voltages (each voltage +/- the same with each fuse removed one by one, headlamp disconnected for testing as well):
1). Battery at rest without key, kill switch "not engaged": 12.6v
2). Turn on key to start: 10.3v
3). Press start: 3.8v

Has anyone run into similar problems in the past? I had a refreshed starter put in the bike less than a year ago, and a new relay as well, any ideas would be much appreciated!!
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Scott_Anderson
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 3071
Location: Central Iowa, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How old and what kind of battery do you have, and have you had it tested. It sounds week to me.
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Ride safe.



1995 K1100LT 0302044
1997 R1100RT ZC62149
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
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bloomy_bmw



Joined: 17 Apr 2016
Posts: 8
Location: Greater Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

She's running with a 2 year old BMW 61.21-2 346 800. Brought it to the autopart store (O'Riley Auto), and they said the battery tested good. I brought it back, cleaned the terminals, ground, and hot wire, but unfortunately the same thing happened.

To make sure the starter brushes weren't the culprit, I put the bike in second gear, went backwards and let the clutch out 3 times to be safe, but again the same troubles.

I hate to be that guy, but anyone have any ideas? Embarassed

EDIT: Yea... on second thought, it seems like the battery may be bad after all; service manual says battery should drop below 8v while starting. Going to pick up a PC682MJ and see how that goes.
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bloomy_bmw



Joined: 17 Apr 2016
Posts: 8
Location: Greater Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whelp, battery did the trick. Thanks to all who helped and guided me through this... sometimes it's the easy things.

Word to the wise: don't install the positive terminal last, with a bare alan wrench, and don't miss a day important to your girlfriend, most likely on the same day... you won't win Rolling Eyes
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