K11 Owners Group

lee richter · Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: Aux Fan Switch

I have been reading this site with great interest since I aquired a 1994 K1100LT. I would like to install an Aux switch for the radiator fan and on one of these sites I saw a hand drawing of a switch, a relay, and a resistor. But, with my shrinking memory I can't remember were and my search has come back Negative. The reason for the interest is that this bike will run 35-100 MPH for hours on end and never miss a beat, however when slowed to 0-30 MPH it will shut-off within 20 minutes and will not restart for about 5-10 minutes. The fuel pump runs, but it will not fire. There is a strong unburned fuel odor when it will not start. All lights are functioning just no start. Temp indicator is in the normal range so I do not think it is an engine over heat. I think that something in the electronics is heat sooking, it only has to set a few minutes to restart. the longer it is allowed to set the longer it will run after the restart. If it is run to highway speeds it will continue to run for hours, literally. I have replaced the Hall Effect, I could heat it with a hair dryer and shut the engine down. Misc. replace the Plugs, Primary Wires, all the filters, Relays (expensive)suggested by lcl BMW, paid BMW to check the Motronic ECU, no codes, hooked a line gauge to the fuel pump and watched for the presure drop, pump stops only after the engine shuts down and the pump will restart when the key is cycled. My back ground is I'm a fair mechanic, Cars, Trucks, Airplanes and most things that say not user servicable parts inside. Ok, this really, really has me irritated. Now that I have vented, any body up for a scotch or two or three. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
_________________
Lee Richter
Orlando, FL
I like flying, HIGH or low, Wings or Not
182 Texas Tail Dragger
'39 J3 Cub
2000 HD Soft Tail Sold
2002 R1150R
1994 K1100LT

Ted · Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject:

Howdy Lee,

Sorry to hear of the irritation Smile

When the engine dies, does it die suddenly and completely or sputter off? Have you tested the new hall effect sensor (someone here or on the MOA site replaced one and found the replacement was faulty!) Have you checked the coils for cracks or run in a dark garage looking for any arcing? When you pulled the plugs did they look ok?
_________________

Ted

KOG#1

miKeinWIs · Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject:

This is a more current post on the fan switch. Basically Drakes resistor idea has been done away with. Just wire a switch into the fan relay wire.
http://www.k11og.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4759&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=fan+switch

As for the dieing under 30 mph--you know more than I if you fool around with aircraft (EAA member but just wishful thinking).
Others will chime I'm sure.
Good luck
Mike
_________________
'97 K1100LT
Bought 6/30/09 w/26,750 miles

Tim (Midland Section) · Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject:

There are 2 Temp sensors, one drives the gauge. The other talks to the EMU. They have been known to go open circuit at a point in the range.
HTH
_________________
Regards Tim,

Grey haired riders don't get that way by pure luck
1996 Guzzi Cali3 LAPD
1972 750 Commando
G6HRN
#485

lee richter · Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:24 am Post subject:

Ted, thanks for the quick reply. It dies like the key was turned off. When it dies, all the lites are out just like it was still running. When the key is cycled off and back on the lites lite-up normal and it will not restart. I have checked the Hall Effect as I originally did with a hair dryer and an Infered Temp. probe. The original would fail at 200 -210 degrees regularly. The replacement does not appear to have a temp issue. (225-240 no problem). I do not know what the design parameters are but for the Automotive Industry 240 is the top limit. I have heated the TPS, the coils and the ECM. It appears as long as there is good air flow ie higher speeds the area under the tank does not get above 175-185 unless the Ambient is 95+ the the sky is the limit.
Last summer I had gas tank temps of 192 on a 97 degree day and open highway running. I did some insulating and constructed a fuel cooler and now I can keep fuel tank temps within 15 degrees of ambient. The thought was to install a fan control that would allow the fan to operate at stop and go speeds, otherwise the temp will go into the red before the fan comes on and it will die in less than 15 minutes. BMWs idea is to start swapping out the electronics untill the problem goes away. By the time you think about get out the ohm meter it will restart. The NO-start window is very narrow. Original plug condition was un-remarkable, dark observation of coils was neg as was misting with water.
_________________
Lee Richter
Orlando, FL
I like flying, HIGH or low, Wings or Not
182 Texas Tail Dragger
'39 J3 Cub
2000 HD Soft Tail Sold
2002 R1150R
1994 K1100LT

Flying Duck · Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject:

If everything dies then it sounds like a bad ignition switch or load shed relay.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE

lee richter · Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:52 am Post subject:

Relay was BMWs recomendation, expensive for what it is, and not returnable after instalation even if they are the installer. I removed the ignition switch and disaembled it at the recomendatin of a local rider. It did not show any indication of corrosion but cleaned it and lubed it with a healthy dose of DiaElectric Compound. Continuity across the contacts not any beter after than before. I remove and disassembled the right bar switch due to the fact that on occation the emergency kill switch would have to be cycled to get the starter to run. It had a lot of gunk but no corrosion. What about the Ingnition Module in the relay bay? Are they subject to heat failure, heat soak, alot of these units in the automotive industry require a heat sink to bleed of latent heat. I hate to do the hair dryer in the electronics bay. I'm told by BMW and other riders that when the ECM fairs it is not intermittant. I have check it a number of times for fail codes to no avail. Any suggestions from anyone would be greatly appreciated. There is no telling what the history of this machine is. It had been left sitting ing a garage for over a year when I aquired it. It, needless to say, was not running, I cleaned out the fuel system and put a new battery in and it fired right off. I put about 2000 miles on it before this issue arised. It started without any warning and has been fairly consistant with consideration to ambient temps. During the winter with temps in the 60s it would run with out trouble.
_________________
Lee Richter
Orlando, FL
I like flying, HIGH or low, Wings or Not
182 Texas Tail Dragger
'39 J3 Cub
2000 HD Soft Tail Sold
2002 R1150R
1994 K1100LT

Flying Duck · Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject:

The little black relays are all the same. Try swapping the horn relay with the load shedding relay or maybe the Motronic relay.

_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE

jpberens1994K1100RS · Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject: Manual Fan Switch

Add the switch anyway, even though that may not be the issue. Be good to your ride.
I got a switch from Flying Duck.

When it's hot like 80 degrees F or so and I run into traffic, I just push my switch and don't worry about it.

Even into the 90's and put putting in traffic the guage on my RS stays rigth at the 1/2 mark.

It's a clean set up. It's an altered ABS switch and when I press it up the fan comes on. Way easy to install.

The Drake can set you up.
_________________
1993 K1100RS that I'd rather be riding FAST!
2014 Moto Guzzi Norge

ChrisWeeK1100RS · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:14 am Post subject:

Hey guys,

This was the EXACT same glitch I encountered during my recent ride to Phuket that I mentioned in my 'Brick survives PBW' posting.

The bike was fine on the highway, but then we hit some major traffic closer to town and whilst stopped at a traffic light, the bike just died.

Pushed it to the side of the road and tried to restart, the starter motor was spinning healthily but the bike just wouldn't start. Turned the ignition off and then on, all the lights on the instrument cluster lit up as usual, but the bike still refused to start. It almost seemed like there was no fuel getting into the engine.

It was a good 20min before the bike managed to fire up again and from then it didn't skip a beat for the rest of the trip. So you reckon fitting an aux fan switch will do the trick? Smile

Or is this something more serious like a fuel pump problem / fuel pressure regulator issue? Sometimes whilst on the go, and with around 1/2 to 1/4 tank of fuel, I can feel some 'hesitation', like the engine is suffering from fuel starvation. But this only happens when the tank is between 1/2 and 1/4 full. Weird!

Chris
_________________
"Ride hard or stay home..."
'93 BMW K1100RS
Mileage: 37,000km-ish
Malaysia

jpberens1994K1100RS · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: heat

I'm not certain your problem could be cured with this, but more heat certainly cannot help.

The manual fan switch is sooooooo nice to keep the temps down.

When you run into some traffic, just switch it on, stay away from the red.

I even use mine after washing the bike to help dry things off and blow out extra water hanging out in there. Then I go for a little spin to get the rest out.
_________________
1993 K1100RS that I'd rather be riding FAST!
2014 Moto Guzzi Norge

Flying Duck · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:06 am Post subject:

If a K bike is quitting when it gets hot then it's usually the Hall Effect Sensor goingt bad. One test you can perform is to remove the cover over the HES and see if you can induce a shutdown by warming the HES with a heat gun.

When it quits on you, try pouring some cold water on the HES cover. Sometimes that will help the bike restart more quickly.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE

Naked Hoof · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:07 pm Post subject:

I had my K die after a nice local ride at supra-legal speeds. I did a lot of searching that day, and it wasn't looking good for the HES. Luckily, I found that the side stand "bypass" (a wire-tie) was "malfunctioning".

However, while I was searching I did manage to find a page that outlined how to repair the HES on an Airhead, and you should be able to do the same with the one on your K:

http://www.ebbo.org/2av54.php
_________________
79 Honda CB750 trainer
traded for Suzuki GS1150e (stolen)
81 Honda CB900F
02 Kawasaki ZR7 (cursed)
93 K1100RS Mystic Red

Dreams should never be reduced in potency by subjecting them to reality. - Lord Snarebottom

lee richter · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject:

Well this is not a new issue it is one that I have been dealing with for a while. My initial investigation lead me to believe that the Hall Effect had a heat induced delamination problem. ( engineering BS for when it gets hot a printed circuit will loose connectivity) I bought one from Drake, and after installing the replacement the issue was not as frequent and I could not induce failure with a heat gun. A trip to the local BMW shop lead to the replacement of the Load Shed Relay. At one time or another I have remove all the switches, including the key switch and disassemble cleaned (they did not show any sign of corosion) Ohm testing was no different after cleaning than before. However, now "I" now know their condition. I have taken some measures to insulate the heat from Me and the gas tank. In this process using a temp probe I found that the normal running temp in the area under the tank is 200+ on a good day and when road temps reach 95 this will run 265+. In traffic the fan does not cycle until the temp gauge is in the red. The issue is this area retains far to much heat. I have entertained the idea of installing a fan behind each side grill to evac this area, and I still may, what is another pound or two.

Fuel will continue to be delivered when it shuts down, strong unburned fuel smell when trying to restart. I have installed a fuel presure gauge to be able to monitor the fuel pump delivery operation (its a pilot thing). My next step is going to be to install a series of LEDS to monitor engine electronics. I will figure this out, I WILL NOT SUBMIT...
_________________
Lee Richter
Orlando, FL
I like flying, HIGH or low, Wings or Not
182 Texas Tail Dragger
'39 J3 Cub
2000 HD Soft Tail Sold
2002 R1150R
1994 K1100LT

Mystic Red · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:40 pm Post subject:

Dirty starter? Most everything runs thru it. Just a thought.
_________________
Scott Hespelt, '94 K11LT
K11 OG #466

lee richter · Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject:

Took the starter suggestion early on as it was an easy look-see. The bike currently shows 49K and I have put 5K of that on it my self. The starter was remarkably clean. Cleaned it anyway, put the armatur in the lath and dressed it and the regrooved, lubed the bushings and re- assemble and in stall. Good, as I am now sure of its condition. The draw is about the same as when I removed it.
_________________
Lee Richter
Orlando, FL
I like flying, HIGH or low, Wings or Not
182 Texas Tail Dragger
'39 J3 Cub
2000 HD Soft Tail Sold
2002 R1150R
1994 K1100LT