K11 Owners Group

[milehigh]

Once, just once, I replaced the normal/standard BMW 15/50 on my 11KLT with automobile Mobil 1 (non-friction reducing, or at least per the API label). I've been anal about 3K changes and I was where there wasn't any BMW oil to be had, so "analism" won...

Now my rear seal is weeping (it's not the tranny, 'cuz I used that stinky BMW synthetic in there and what's weeping out doesn't smell bad enough).

Could the reason be the Mobil 1 in the motor messing with the rear motor seal, or is 56K about the right time for a seal to go?

Thanx for any feedback/sympathy!

Cheers!

Jack S.

[SugarHillCTD]

More likely the clutch nut "O"ring is starting to register on the rockwell hardness scale (dried out by heat and time) than the rear engine seal failing.

But if you are going in to replace one, you might as well do both- this was according to THE parts guy at MaxBMW- Rusty Gill. Hard to disagree unless you want to contemplate doing the job twice. Both parts are pretty cheap- the work to replace them takes a bit of time.

I speak from experience- I saw the same oil seepage last summer- it was the "O"ring but I did both.
_________________
John & Cathy

'92 K100RS4V Pearl White SOLD
'04 K1200GT
IBA Several-SS1k, BBG, 50CC NYC to S.F.

[old guy old bike]

I also did both. Mine also started leaking after putting in the Mobil 1. Coincidence, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I have only used Dino since the seal switch. Castrol BTW. No leaks to date.
Jeff
_________________
1993 K1100LT
2003 K1200GT Gone but not forgotten
2014 Victory Crossraods

[BobZ(IL)]

Pretty common to develop leaks converting from dino to synths in many applications.
_________________
'93 K1100LT
'78 R100S
'05 R1200GS
BMWMOA, CRBMWOA, ABC, K11OG #997

Live well, do good work, enjoy the ride.

[Shoganai]

Hi milehigh and welcome to K11OG

What year / model is your bike?
That helps with tech questions.

I'm right this very minute doing the read mail seal on my 1996 K1100.
And only because it's a new-ish to me bike that has been leaking since I got it.


This is me pissed off trying to get the ABS out of the darn way.


FWIW I only use Dino.
_________________
1993 K1100RS aka The Shop Whore
1994 K1100RS aka Blue Streak

The long road is a rainbow and the pot of gold lies there.
So slip the chain and I'm off again,
You'll find me everywhere. I'm a Rover. - JT


Nana korobi ya oki

[SugarHillCTD]

I like the nail polish, Gwen. Is that 691 Silk Blue?


_________________
John & Cathy

'92 K100RS4V Pearl White SOLD
'04 K1200GT
IBA Several-SS1k, BBG, 50CC NYC to S.F.

[milehigh]

Thanks, y'all, for the replies.

Let me clarify: My '96 KLT has 56+-K on it and has had virtually nothing but syn. lube at both ends every 3K with a filter change every 6K since 20K. BMW blessed that, so I did it...recently their master tech. here at BMW of Denver said I was wasting my money, but I was once employed there in the parts dept. so the price was bearable and I've stuck with the real BMW stuff.

"Sugar.." (like, Sugar Hill, NH? Is Polly's Pancake Place still there??) said something about the O-ring, and I dug out my Clymer's and I still don't quite get the relationship between that O-ring and the whole clutch assy. -- or why that failing would be a reason for an oil leak. Does it sit between the seal and the clutch, or what? I've never seen a dry clutch setup with an O-ring, but then the last clutch I replaced was on my '32 Ford!

My Beemer place doesn't seem too surprised that it's leaking, and (sorry, Gwen) they've had problems with seals on K11RS's before. I recall one that came back four times before they got it right...???.

Cheers!

Jack S. (and that's not just my name -- it's can also be my demeanor)

[old guy old bike]

The flywheel is splined onto the shaft. The seal seals on the spigot of the flywheel wheras the o-ring seals the inside around the shaft.

I bet someone will come along with a diagram or a picture and it will all make sence.

Oh yea, make sure the new seal is seated .5mm (.020") below the surface. If it sticks out or is flush the seal fails because the flywheel is thrusting on it. To deep is also bad because it can then run on the leadin chamfer. Touchy little bugger.
Jeff
_________________
1993 K1100LT
2003 K1200GT Gone but not forgotten
2014 Victory Crossraods

[SugarHillCTD]

Jack,

Yes- Polly's is still here. It sucks in all the tourists.

You will only see the "O"ring once you pull the flywheel off. As Jeff said, it is on the output shaft of the engine. If you are going to do a new rear seal, you are probably going to bugger the "O"ring up by pulling off the flywheel. And a new "O"ring costs- ready for this? $1.15

THE parts guy @ MaxBMW had me put in a new friction plate, rear seal, "O"ring and strongly suggested 6 new bolts that hold the pressure plate to the flywheel. He thought that at the mileage I was at (40,000) unless the pressure plate had something broken that I should just clean it up and put it back in.

Worked like new.

John
_________________
John & Cathy

'92 K100RS4V Pearl White SOLD
'04 K1200GT
IBA Several-SS1k, BBG, 50CC NYC to S.F.

[old guy old bike]

I was at 90,000 and they talked me into a new diaphram. Had no way to check the old one for pressure.
_________________
1993 K1100LT
2003 K1200GT Gone but not forgotten
2014 Victory Crossraods

[mtnroads]

Shortly after I purchased my first K1100RS (a 1993) several years ago, I changed the oil with Mobil 1. Within a month I had a slipping clutch and had to get that seal or the o-ring (and clutch) replaced. The bike was relatively young (5 yrs) and low miles.

I suspect the sliipier oil gets past the seal easier.
_________________
2012 R1200RT Midnight Blue
95 K1100LT Graphit (sold)
01 R1100RT Black (sold)

[Tim (Midland Section)]

[Ernie-NH]

Good morning all....

Regarding "MTNROADS" comment ""I suspect the sliipier oil gets past the seal easier.""

The use of the word 'synthetic' in describing this oil, Mobil or any other, is not correct. The so-called synthetics start life as regular dino derivitive, are then deconstituted, impurities removed, reconstituted, and additives such as phosphrous and other 'viscosity attenuators' added lastly. If the oil IS slipery-er then it is due to the proprietary additives, not the oil itself.
Wear properties are also determined at that time, using both SAE and DIN
defined equipment.

In addition... when designing and manufacturing a seal, the OEM product is rigorously tested using the customers lubrication package under extreme conditions of "heat, pressure, grit, and RPM" for extended periods of time, (often exceeding 90 days ) both continuous and intermittent, to verify its expected performance and lifespan. However, as a seal manufacturer, we also test in all available lubricants one could reasonably expect an 'owner' to subject the seal to. IF one or more alternative lubricants prove to impact the performance or life of the seal negatively, the customer ( ie: BMW, Daimler, Volvo, Honda, Harley, etc.....) is informed, the test results made known, and the customer advised to include "owner warnings" in the product literature.

So, if your seal is leaking, no matter who has manufactured it, it is most likely either 'aged out', installed improperly, or has been subjected to acids within the sump caused by deteriorating oils in the past causing premature elastomer wear.

Best regards and good luck......// Ernie-NH
_________________
AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7

[Flying Duck]

I've never experienced seal/O-ring failure when switching to Mobil 1. Example: I got my LT with 14k so I ran it on Castrol GTX 20/50 until 20k to let it break in and then switched to Mobil 1. That was several years ago. It turned 44k yesterday and all is well.

Aside from the acids as Ernie mentioned, I think one factor may be bikes that sit for extended periods allowing the O-ring to dry out and harden, especially in a hot climate.

So the answer is to your your bike often, not that you should need that excuse.

I also don't see the point in replacing the rear main seal. Call me lazy but I'm of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school. I've been through my fair share of Ks and never had one leak.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE

[milehigh]

Hmm, strange...I sent a msg. to this thread yesterday and it disappeared into Cyberlimbo. Thank heaven for Firefox's Lazarus add-on, I can get it all back...OK:

[Ernie-NH]

Hello "mile high Jack" !

Re: ""Ah, and as the bard said, "therein lies the rub"! Does the "customer" bother even telling the end user? Particularly when such negative performance can result in return business down the road...""

The OEM customer is ALWAYS informed and copied on all test data. In 'rider manuals' and such one can always find specific warnings relative to the use of any product not authorized by the manufacturer. Your "K Bike" rider's manual is full with warnings concerning non-BMW approved stuff, though not called out by any trade names.

Re: My note: "" So, if your seal is leaking, no matter who has manufactured it, it is most likely either 'aged out', installed improperly, or has been subjected to acids within the sump caused by deteriorating oils in the past causing premature elastomer wear."" There is no end to the number of warranty instances in which either the OEM or a service tech has repaired a seal related problem only to introduce yet another in the form of an improper installation, the most common of which is the "cocked spring" in which the internal garter spring- which controls/maintains the radial load imparted by the seal to the shaft being sealed - has become partially dislodged from the 'spring pocket' due to the seal having been impacted ( ie: hammered in ) rather that pressed in using a proper mandrel. Radial load,is critical to the performance of a radial shaft seal, and also determines is life. Simply said, neither BMW nor any of its service depots are immune from this simple lack of attention.

Degradation of the rubber comprising the seal as well as the garter spring responsible for imparting a calculated load to the shaft, IS also a major cause of leaking, weeping, and premature failure..... nearly ALL of which can be further attributed to ACIDIC product formation in the sump due to the ingress of water. Water will enter the system via faulty or failing gaskets, faulty breather, failing water-pump cross over, and even via insignificant piston 'blow by' of unspent hydrocarbons plus water ! Once water begins to come in contact with the sulfides and other complexes with the oil(s), any residual sludge, and/or metal wear particles, it forms Sulfuric Acid which is both deadly to the seal 'rubber' and the SAE-1032 spring wire of the garter spring.

Mere 'changing out' the oils, regular intervals or not, is NO guarantee that water has not and/or will not immediately reenter the system to further degrade what you already have. Of course, perfect seals, perfect gaskets, and perfect lubricants will all solve the problems, but as yet perfect awaits to be developed. It's much simpler to pit 'dino' against 'synthetics' and lay the blame at their feet. Could it be that 'dino' sludges so quickly as to obscure the leak? ( I dont think so either, but at least its an argument....eh?)

Someone will come along shortly with a knowledgeable response to your "clutch/throwout" problem, I'm sure.


Best regards and good luck......// Ernie-NH
_________________
AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7

[RAL88]

When I got my K11LT it had a little over 4000 miles on it. Since I have had it it has nothing in it but mobile 1. I had done a lot of reading and asking mechanic friends and they said the run it would take a little longer but that it was not a problem. The bike currently has over 30,000 miles on it and it has no leaks and burns very little oil. I change my oil every year at the beginning of fall and as of now I have not had to add oil to it between oil changes.

Just my experience.
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

[Phil Marvin]

Hi,
I had 2 K1100LT's. I bought the '96 in 1997 with 14300 miles on it. It had Yamaha 20w40 in it. I changed it to Castrol 20w50, then Mobil 1 15w50 synthetic, then back to Castrol GTX 20w50 when I found a case I had misplaced, then back to Mobil 1 15w50 synthetic, with (once) straight 30 wt. added to bring the level up to the dot. I changed the dino stuff at 3k miles and the synthetic at 7500 and later, 10k mile intervals. It never leaked.

I bought the second one, a '95, in 2005, with under 5k miles on it. I finished breaking it in (to 20k miles) with a Mexican store brand, Soriana 20w50 conventional (SG) oil. I then changed to Mobil 1 15w50 synthetic, planning to change it every year or 10k miles. Before 10k miles passed, I hit a deer at 65mph. The bike is gone, but before I hit the deer, it never leaked a drop.

I have had 4 K75 bikes, each of which I changed to Mobil 1 15w50 synthetic, and none has ever leaked! I guess I'm lucky, but I would rather use synthetic oil and change it and filter every 10k miles than use conventional oil and change it more frequently.
_________________
Ride Safe,
Phil Marvin in El Paso, TX
'94 K75A/3
'95 K75RTP

[Ernie-NH]

Hi Phil....

GREAT to hear from you BTW..... On the rear main oil seal for K bikes, didn't the seal change to a "rubber carried PTFE" roll-over type seal somewhere around '91 or '92 ???? Around that time we were having problems with amine formation, plus the addition of alcohols to the fuels ( methanol and ethanol ) migrating to the sump causing the existing FKM ( Viton ) to degrade and weep. PTFE is impervious to these agents BUT installation of the "roll over" can be problematic UNLESS the ID seal sleeve comes with the seal and it seats uniformly...even then the seal will weep when new until the dams along the spiral fill with charred lubricant.

Just checking with your historical knowledge of "what happened when" in the world of BMW bikes..

Best regards as always............// Ernie in NH
_________________
AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7