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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: Clutch Pack O-ring source |
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I'm about to replace my clutch o-ring for the second time in 155K miles. Has
anyone found a source for Viton or Silicone O-rings for this application? I believe a flourosilicone 0-ring 19X4 would last almost as long as the clutch disc.
Thanks,
Mick
Tucson
UPDATE: I just ordered 10pcs of this silicone O-ring:
http://www.oringsandmore.com/servlet/the-1865/Silicone-o-dsh-rings-Size-314/Detail They are close to 4x19 at .187 X .750 that equates to
4.7mm X 19.05mm but since they are silicone, they should 'squish' just a little better too.
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ
Last edited by bmwmick on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tyronewildman
Joined: 16 May 2012
Posts: 24
Location: Tyrone, Georgia USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: O Ring Source |
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You can try also http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=jzs2g7 and they have all kinds and O ring material to make your own. I have made carb float bowl rings using the cheapest crazy glue-Caution, it glues fingers real good. Later,,, De 
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'13 FJR Yamaha
'09 Road King
'07 Buell P3 Blast
'02 Buell S3T
'94 K1100LT ABS BMW
'94 GL1500 Honda
'89 PC800 Honda
'77 T140V Triumph
'69 441 Victor Special BSA
'69 CT90 Honda
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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks wild,
The site I mentioned above had better prices and shipping was only $3. McMaster Carr is way overpriced for shipping. I gave up on MCarr when I could not find the 4X19 metric o-ring but once I translated it to an inch size, it was a lot easier. I'll know more when they arrive early next week. I don't even have my K1100 here yet, I plan to bring it home from CA later this month so I can do it with the benefit of a lift this time. Last time I was crawling on the garage floor and that is NOT fun anymore.  I'm still debating whether to use a stock friction disc or one of those fancy Siebenrock oil-proof ones that Mike at beemerboneyard is selling. Tempting.......but almost twice the price of the stock disc at $245
Mick
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ |
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Number 6
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 05 Feb 2011
Posts: 481
Location: Paris area, France
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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How do you know the O-ring is the culprit and not the engine main seal?
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94 K1100LT |
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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Number 6 wrote: | | How do you know the O-ring is the culprit and not the engine main seal? |
6,
If the main seal was the culprit, I would only have engine oil dripping out of the hole at the bottom of the bellhousing. When the 0-ring fails, the friction disc gets covered in oil and slips eventually. The rear main makes a mess OUTSIDE the clutch basket, the o-ring makes a mess INSIDE the clutch basket. I replaced the rear main at 110K miles just because I was in there to replace the o-ring. It was OK then but it was the old original seal. I also replaced the transmission seals even though they were not leaking.
Mick
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ |
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Number 6
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 05 Feb 2011
Posts: 481
Location: Paris area, France
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| bmwmick wrote: | | Number 6 wrote: | | How do you know the O-ring is the culprit and not the engine main seal? |
6,
If the main seal was the culprit, I would only have engine oil dripping out of the hole at the bottom of the bellhousing. When the 0-ring fails, the friction disc gets covered in oil and slips eventually. The rear main makes a mess OUTSIDE the clutch basket, the o-ring makes a mess INSIDE the clutch basket. I replaced the rear main at 110K miles just because I was in there to replace the o-ring. It was OK then but it was the old original seal. I also replaced the transmission seals even though they were not leaking.
Mick |
The main seal will eventually contaminate the disk also.
When you're there, it is good practice to change all seals.
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94 K1100LT |
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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Number 6 wrote: |
The main seal will eventually contaminate the disk also.
When you're there, it is good practice to change all seals. |
6,
I would only replace the seals if I did not know the history of the bike. I've had this one since new. I agree, the rear main WILL make a mess and if ignored for thousands of miles, it just might splash into the clutch pack but that is a remote possibility. Say the rear main leaks badly, the OUTSIDE of the clutch pack is covered in engine oil, IF you park the bike for an extended period and the oil has a chance to run from the outside of the clutch pack to the inside, then you might get a little oil on the friction disc.
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ |
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Ernie-NH
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 982
Location: Bristol, New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: |
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 ??
Good morning Mick...
IF you are determined to replaced the "O" ring... please better to be sure its a BMW-OEM replacement !! Why ?? Because when you buy seals, especially "O" rings from a retailer, YOU have no assurance as to the compound from which it is made. These elastomers ARE NOT generic !! While 'silicone' is heat resistant to appx. 260 degC it is only marginal for exposure to engine oil, and there is ALWAYS some oil going by the rear-main oil seal onto the back of the "O" ring !! ( thats why its there ) VITON which is a specific DuPont product, is a fluroelastomer good to appx. 240 to 260 degC, BUT you have no assurance that the retail "o" ring you install is actually made from that material. (Other fluroelastomers perform less well ) The BEST material for this application would be a Fluroisilicone which is resistant to the engine oil, BUT whose temperature resistance is somewhat less than "VITON" at appx. 230 degC... (( all in ideal situations ))
Now the problem here is that "O" rings are bought/sold as a commodity on the 'world market' and bagged by wholesalers for commercial sales to companies such as Grainger, Autozone, McMaster-Carr, NAPA,,, etc.. These rings are manufactured in countries all over Asia, India, Pakistan, etc... from cheap "home brew" and/or "self compounded" materials that do NOT and can NEVER fulfill the requirements of the original OEM application !!
As an Elastomerics Engineer and Applications Researcher for more than 40 years both in Germany and the USA as well as in Asia, I would NEVER buy such a simple product as an "O" ring from any retailer for any performance machine ( ie: K bike ) I intended to ride !! Though I know the "O" ring product to appear simple, its design and the compound technology that went into its development often involves YEARS of testing and refinement, and such has ALWAYS been the case with any elastomeric product I supplied to BMW whether it was an automobile or a motorcycle application ! As a consumer, I cannot expect you to appreciate or even understand that, BUT I can advise you that buying any non-BMW approved elastomeric product for your precious K-bike might be 'penny wise' but certainly will be 'pound foolish' ! Caveat emptor !!
Best of luck and.... ride safe !!............// Ernie in NH
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Number 6
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 05 Feb 2011
Posts: 481
Location: Paris area, France
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well, don't agree on your main seal statement, but I guess you'll find out by yourself.
When you change the clutch disk, you should always change the engine main seal o-ring and gearbox input ring and the small rod seal on the other side of the gear box.
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Ernie-NH
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 982
Location: Bristol, New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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!!
HI "6"....
Re: ""When you change the clutch disk, you should always change the engine main seal o-ring and gearbox input ring and the small rod seal on the other side of the gear box.""..... multi-dittos on that !!
Best regards..........// Ernie in NH
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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Ernie-NH wrote: | ??
Good morning Mick...
IF you are determined to replaced the "O" ring... please better to be sure its a BMW-OEM replacement !! |
Thanks Ernie but the reason I'm getting away from the oem compound is because it does NOT perform. I have both Viton and Silicone o-rings coming. I won't know the type of silicone until they arrive.
The bmw o-rings harden and crack prematurely.
I doubt the output shaft will ever see 446 (your 230c) degrees or the oil would turn to coke. Viton® Fluoroelastomer O-Ring will most likely be the one I use and I'm not worried that they would substitute some other material. The trouble with oem o-rings is that they may have been sitting in some parts bin for years before I se them.
I'm not picking these o-rings up at Harbor Freight. 
Fluorosilicone would definitely be better than the pure silicone material.
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ
Last edited by bmwmick on Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ernie-NH wrote: | ??
Good morning Mick...
IF you are determined to replaced? the "O" ring... please better to be sure its a BMW-OEM replacement !! |
Thanks Ernie but the reason I'm getting away from the oem compound is because it does NOT perform.
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ
Last edited by bmwmick on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ernie-NH
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 982
Location: Bristol, New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mick...
Take a look at the "Chinese Sparkplug production" which Drikko sent along on another thread! I cannot tell you the extent to which completely bogus OEM parts are manufactured and labeled in factories JUST LIKE THAT, and then packaged for sale at premium OEM Aftermarket prices. Use whatever you want of course, but irrespective of WHEN the BMW-OEM part was packed, IF it has been wrapped ( as we did all BMW, Daimler, VW, Opel, Reneault, Ford-Europa and Fiat replacement parts ) the ozone barrier foil will keep it fresh indefinitely. Hey.... good luck my friend!
Best regards.... ride safe....// Ernie in NH
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'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Ernie-NH wrote: |
I cannot tell you the extent to which completely bogus OEM parts are manufactured and labeled in factories JUST LIKE THAT, and then packaged for sale at premium OEM Aftermarket prices. Use whatever you want of course, but irrespective of WHEN the BMW-OEM part was packed, IF it has been wrapped ( as we did all BMW, Daimler, VW, Opel, Reneault, Ford-Europa and Fiat replacement parts ) the ozone barrier foil will keep it fresh indefinitely. Hey.... good luck my friend!
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Yes Ernie,
I'm fully aware of the India and Chinese rip-off parts. I'll take a chance rather than take a low cost "get bmw through the warranty period" bmw part. It used to be a great company, now, not so much.
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ |
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Ernie-NH
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 982
Location: Bristol, New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mick...
End of story... good luck,, ride safe !.........// Ernie in NH
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AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7 |
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Number 6
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 05 Feb 2011
Posts: 481
Location: Paris area, France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:27 am Post subject: |
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It's kind of stange that you get several o-ring failures, maybe there's something wrong with your bike because it's unusual.
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I am not a number, I am a free man.
94 K1100LT |
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bmwmick
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 07 Jun 2003
Posts: 907
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Number 6 wrote: | | It's kind of stange that you get several o-ring failures, maybe there's something wrong with your bike because it's unusual. |
Yes, the last two o-rings were bmw parts, that was the major problem. Nothing in the clutch asm could cause premature failure of this o-ring. Two failures in 155k miles is NOT uncommon either. The output shaft should have a smooth surface instead of splines where the o-ring is expected to seal.
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Mick McKinnon
KOG#175
'93 K1100LT, '96 R1100RT, '84 R100RS, 2010 Kawasaki C-14
Tucson, AZ |
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