K11 Owners Group

beemrdon52 · Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:17 pm Post subject: Oil Leak...Again! Please Help.

I have owned my 1996 K1100 LT SE for almost 2 years now. It has 70,xxx miles on the clock. I like the bike but I am loosing patience with it.
A few monthe after I bought the K it started to leak out the bottom weep hole. It smelled like trans fluid and then the cluth started to slip in 5th. I had a new clutch pack installed along with a new rear main seal, O-ring and trans seal - everything - this was last summer. This winter I replaced the rear trans "cup' because of another leak, not a big deal.
Today I noticed wetness under the bike at the weep hole again and also noticed small stains on the ground where I had parked it overnight. This time it looks like engine oil - no trans fluid smell. So...WTF?
As a side note, the PO had changed the clutch before selling the bike to me - because of a leak - he gave me the parts receipts.
Is there a breather for this motor like a pcv? I had a rear main seal leak on a Volvo until I changed out the "oil trap" and it disappeared.
I also noticed an oil stain around the engine filler. seems like pressure build-up? I'm not a mechanic..
Any help and suggestions of what to check or do now will be much appreciated. I don't want to replace the clutch again.
Thanx,
Don in the Boston area Mad

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 8:16 pm Post subject:

Well, there have been a few posts over the years of individuals bypassing the "cyclonic oil separator" and installing a pcv valve.
Use the search box for 'cyclonic' or 'crankcase breather' and you should come up with a few options to read up on.

Basically at the rear of the engine block there is a hose that (most likely bad after a few years anyway) goes into the top lid(above the filter) of the air box. This hose is cut short near the block fitting so that you can fit a pcv valve. The pcv valve is then connected to the vac rail manifold on the backside of the throttle bodies.

in this thread:
http://www.k11og.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11285&highlight=cyclonic

One additional change that I did on both of my bikes is that I connected all 4 of the "front" throttle body vacuum ports together and connected one side of it to the front block fitting (sets behind the radiator that he has marked in the image as blocked off) and connected the other end to my cruise control.

This way, at low idle the block gets the high vacuum from the front vac rail, and then when the engine rpms are higher, the block gets the vacuum from both front rail and the rear rail thru the pcv valve.

The jury is out yet on weather it helps with oil consumption or not, but I did notice that I now have much better block vacuum at the oil fill cap when the engine is running. It want's to suck the cap in instead of blow it off........
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

beemrdon52 · Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:08 pm Post subject:

Thanks Scott

I read the posts and studied the diagram. I'm not sure if I am qualified to do this myself. Maybe.

I am going to call Max BMW tomorrow and talk with them and get their feedback.

How long did it take you to do the job?

Did you or someone else say that the changes made are similar to the stock K1200RS system?

Don Ostertag

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:47 pm Post subject:

It was someone else.
Basically when the K1100 production ended, so did the "cyclonic oil separator" unit inside the airbox. The mod listed above is supposed to be similar (if not the same) to what the design is on the K1200 series.

Once I had all the parts to do the mod, I think I spent about 1 hr in total.
I already had the bike on the lift for annual service so it wasn't that big of a deal to do.
The one issue that I had to wait on was sealing the hole in the airbox top.
I used a small piece of commercial hvac aluminum duct sealing tape(really supper sticky) on the inside of the hole then filled the hole with some silicone caulk. I let it set overnight before re-assembly.

I can look tomorrow and find the part #'s for the pcv valve and the "help" emission hose accessory kit that I bought for the rear block connection to the pcv valve.
If your rear hose is not extremely old, it can be cut short and re-used, my wasn't so I had to improvise something else other than ordering a $40 bmw hose just to cut it short.......
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

Jim · Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 11:06 pm Post subject:

Don - I did the NZ Max Mod also - but don't have it set up quite the way Scott did with his modification to the modification. Seemed to work on my bike. Not at all sure a dealer would want to do it, but any independent shop should.
_________________
Jim
1997 K1100LTSE 94,000 - still has gremlins!
1995 R100RT Classic 16,650 crashed - repaired!
1992 K75RTP 46,000

"We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed."

beemrdon52 · Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 11:48 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the reply Jim.

*I have a question...Was your bike leaking oil at the weep hole before you did the mod?

Mine is starting to leak a bit, but it will probably only get worse if nothing is done. Unfortunately, I just got through replacing the whole clutch pack $$$$ (contamination) and i don't want to have to do it again. I am hoping that the pressure reduction will allow the leak to stop.

I'm hesitant to do the job myself as I have very limited work space and even more limited knowledge of these bikes and I don't quite "get" all the mod proceedures to my satisfaction. (my R90/6 is so much easier to deal with, - more to my level of mechanical skills.)

I suppose I could try to find someone to do it after printing out everything.

Not sure what I'm going to do yet.
Maybe even rejuvinate the present system...maybe I can at least do that.

*Do you still have the directions that you used?

Don in Boston

blue95lt · Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:05 am Post subject: The seal?

The p. O. Put in a new clutch but did he put in a new clutch nut o-ring?
jm2cw!
_________________
1995 k1100lt daily ride(22953)when I got it
1982 cb650sc blue nighthawk (38000)(crashed)
1974 kz400(sold to get nighthawk)

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 7:35 am Post subject:

There was a bmw service bulletin about the output shaft seal and oil leaking on the 1100's.

Don Eilenberger describes the cause in post #10 here:
http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?6291-Very-Bad-Oil-Leak

In the tsb it states that "If a complaint is received....."
You can access the TSB from this link. Select the tab across the top and you can then see all TSB's related to your selection.

http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/K100-service-bulletins-and%20special-tools/bulletins.htm
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

beemrdon52 · Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:42 pm Post subject: Thanks Scott...

Thanks a lot Scott for all of the info.

Looks like a badly placed seal could be the problem or a contributing factor. The guy that put in my clutch last year is (was?) a certified tech and former Max BMW of New Hampshire employee wrenching for himself these days. I would think that he knows how to put in a rear main the right way but I'm not going to take anything for granted.

What's interesting is that the PO also replaced the clutch and seals twice. Two years in a row. Well, he didn't tell me this but I deduced it from the pile of dated, itemized receipts that he gave me along with the title.
He did the work himself (mechanical engineer). I have a big suspicion that he gave up on the bike and now I own it.

So leaks and clutches seem to be a way of life around this K. Obviously, (or not) the symptoms , leaking and slipping, have been getting all of the attention whereas the cause has not.
I still think that there is too much pressure inside that engine.

Is there any way to determine this w/o fancy equipment?
I'm seeing heavy weeping around the crankshaft cover and also a smaller weeping around the oil filler plug. If I open the oil filler plug while the engine is running, should I feel a sucking pressure with my hand on the filler hole?

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:08 pm Post subject:

I know that before I did the modification, if I remove the oil fill cap when running, it would blow off into my hand.
After I did the mod, I can loosen the cap and the suction will keep it in place.

Have you had a compression test done lately?

I listed some other thoughts in your motobrick thread, more mechanical related to the seal issue, than internal block pressure.

As far as the block internal pressure/vacuum, I've not tried to measure it.
If you are maybe having some blowby from piston rings, it could literally push oil out the rear main seal if the pressure is high enough.
There are some oil additives that can help with sticking rings. Shogs has used some in one of her RS's with excellent results of improved compression.
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

beemrdon52

Scott,
you mentioned blow-by and I have to say that at higher rpm's when getting on it, I can smell burnt oil when cutting the throttle sharply. Reminded me of my R90/6 before I got the heads redone+new rings. also, it does use a bit of oil but I thought is common for these motors.

I would try the additive. Can you tell me what it is called?

As far as the cap blowing out while being released from unscrewing, mine doesn't have that kind of pressure, if I understand you right. I just went out and started it. The outward pressure from the oil fill cap is greatest at idle. I can feel it on my hand and it is quite noticeable but when I raise the throttle, it is less noticeable but I can still feel it.

I have not had a compression test done at all.

It runs pretty good, I guess. Has power, is smooth, no hiccups, can pull from 2000 rpm all the way up. However, as I said, it can smell when chopping the accelerator back and forth at high rpms.

beemrdon52 · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:47 am Post subject:

UPDATE: I am taking the bike back to the mechanic who installed the clutch w/i the next two weeks and he is going to investigate the oil leak issue by tearing the bike down...I may need another clutch due to the oil leak anyway. (The bike had a complete clutch pack installed less than 3k ago)
I mentioned the rear main seal special placement to him over the phone and he sounded like he'd never heard of it. I want to show him the BMW service bulletin.
Anyway, I am also either going to change out the breather hoses or do the mod that Scott described to me here and on Motobrick, not sure yet. Thanks so much Scott for all the info.
Also, I am getting rid of the K&N air filter while in there. Anything else I should check out or replace while the K is opened up?

***Anybody on this board have any experience with a Siebenrock oil resistant clutch? I am seriously considering having one installed while the bike is opened up. Any drawbacks to these things (other than the price)? Beemer Boneyard and others sell them for about $260.

SugarHillCTD · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:53 am Post subject:

beemrdon52 · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:30 pm Post subject:

Thanks Sugar, I will check him out for any info that he might have with them.
On the surface of it, the oil-proof design sounds like a good idea, especially when yer hundreds of miles from home, the oil is flowing out the weep hole and the only gear you have is neutral.

SugarHillCTD · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:29 am Post subject:

I had an oil leak on my previous K1100RS but never to the point of not having the bike lose forward movement. I was out with another member and I went to pass a vehicle and wound it up past 6000rpm - then it rev'd too quickly to redline.

Upon disassembly the friction disc was damp but not dripping with oil.

IMHO, having a K clutch that can get so oil soaked that it will not go forward isn't the clutch disc's fault but an error in assembly.

That bike that I replaced the clutch on never leaked a drop after I did the work.

I agree with Scott that the previous owner probably drove the new rear seal in until flush with the engine case. Or didn't lube the seal contact surface. Or both.

When I bought the parts for that clutch job, I spoke to Rusty Gill, the very knowledgeable parts guy at MaxBMW N.H. He knows K bikes like the back of his hand. He told me what parts to replace and what parts to reuse PLUS gave me some valuable hints on my reassembly work. One was that the new style rear seal should not be driven in completely, but left with a small "reveal" (cannot remember the amount off the top of my head).

Good luck!

John
_________________
John & Cathy

'92 K100RS4V Pearl White SOLD
'04 K1200GT
IBA Several-SS1k, BBG, 50CC NYC to S.F.

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:02 am Post subject:

SugarHillCTD · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:22 am Post subject:

Thanks Scott- I'll make a note of it in my manual
_________________
John & Cathy

'92 K100RS4V Pearl White SOLD
'04 K1200GT
IBA Several-SS1k, BBG, 50CC NYC to S.F.

beemrdon52 · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:32 am Post subject:

Hi John,

I got the memo on the seal placement from Scott - thanks. I am not sure that my mechanic knows about it though. I spoke with him a couple of days ago (on the phone) to get this thing taken care of and I mentioned the seal placement and he sounded like he didn't know about it. I am pretty sure the PO put the seal in flush because he wrote on the back of the parts invoice "install seal flush"......
Seems like these bikes are pretty fussy about seal placement.
I talked with Rusty a couple of days ago. (I am down here in the Boston area (Belmont) and know Max in NH.) He talked to me about the possibility of some "run-out" with the engine output shaft as a remote possibility and he said to put a dye into the engine oil with the trans out of the bike and run the motor using a blacklight to find the source of the leak. I don't think my mechanic is up for that. As it is, he's kind of pissed that he has to do it over again with a yard full of bikes to get out the door.
I now wish that I had just bitten the bullet and gone to Max to begin with. Trying to save money sometimes backfires. Max warranties their work for 2 years...and they pick up your bike free of charge. Live and learn.
My ultimate goal is to move to a place where I have a decent garage so that I can do more of the work myself. As it is, I can do many repairs and maintenance on my vehicles that have a quick in-and-out time frame but not on a "repair-in-progress" type of job.
BTW - Did you ever do the breather mod or change out the breather hoses? Were (are) your breather hoses rotten? Anyone else want to chime in?
Thanks...

old guy old bike · Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject:

1 to 1.5mm sticks in my mind for the reveal. Make sure you keep it square. I used an old GM seal tool and cut it on a lathe to hold the reveal and squareness.
Jeff
_________________
1993 K1100LT
2003 K1200GT Gone but not forgotten
2014 Victory Crossraods

Manhattan Rider · Big Brick Rider Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 69

I had the dealer install a Siebenrock clutch on my R1150GS in preparation for another trip to the Arctic Circle, not on my LT.

However, the installation on a single plate clutch is the same. My problem with the installation was the dealer used the used clutch pressure plate and diaphragm spring for the installation. They already had 10,000 miles. My recommendation is if you install a Siebenrock clutch disk, you also replace the pressure plate ($120) and diaphragm spring ($80). These parts wear at an angle, so if you don't replace them, the pressure plate and clutch disk won't mate up.

I bought my 96 K1100LT new and it now have 163,000 miles. The original clutch lasted until 110,000 miles and was replaced due to wear. I'm still on the second clutch with no issues.
_________________
Ken Krumm
Manhattan, Kansas
2014 BMW R1200GSA
1996 BMW K1100LT
1996 BMW R1100RT
2004 BMW R1150GS
BMW 500,000 Mile Award
2004 Ducati ST3
1974 Norton 850 Commando Roadster
1969 BSA 441 Victor Special