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beemeerr11
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 168
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 Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| robleyd wrote: | | Quote: | | Swap the position of the relays and chech if the windscreen goes the other direction and only in one direction. |
That is exactly what happens 
New relays are on the way so I'll see how they go. |
Robleyd,
Narva part number 68070 available at Repco etc for a fraction of the cost of a genuine?
Lou
95LT |
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robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:12 am Post subject: |
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Now you tell me  $15 each plus postage from Munich Motorcycles.
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David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
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rbm
Mad Brick Rider
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| robleyd wrote: | | Now the strange part - with the relays in place I can get the screen to go in one direction; I can only get it to reverse by transposing the relays?? They are both identical by part number and by behaviour, so I really don't understand what is going on here. |
The windshield motor reverses because the relays reverse the polarity of the DC signal going to the motor. If the problem moves with one of the relays, then the problem is most likely in the relay. The relay that allows the motor to operate is the good relay; the other is most likely bad.
The relays are 1FormC (single-pole double throw) configuration. A schematic of the relays that I used in my windshield retrofit to my K100RT is shown below for illustration:
That means that with power removed from the relay coil, there should be continuity between two of the relay contacts -- Terminal 30 and Terminal 87A in automotive terminology. Take an ohmmeter and test for near zero resistance between two terminals. With power applied to the relay coil, there should be continuity between the other contact and the common terminal. I might supect that you are going to read open circuit between one set of contacts. The relay contacts may have burnt out, especially if you move the windshield under load repeatedly.
The control circuit is really simple. The relay common contact goes to the motor; the normally closed contact is connected to a source of ground and the normally open contact is connected to a source of +12 volts. The relay coils are connected in series with the actuator switch on the handlebars and with the limit switch inside the motor gear housing. In non-engaged mode, both motor leads are connectd to ground through the normally-closed contacts on the realys. When the actuator switch is pressed in any direction, +12 volts is switched to the appropriate motor lead (through the appropriate relay) and the motor travels in that direction until the limit switch breaks the circuit to the relay coil and the motor stops.
Test the motor on the bench by touching +12 volts and ground to its terminals; it should travel in one direction. Reverse the polarity and the motor should rotate in the opposite direction. If this works, the motor is functional.
Test the relays off the bench by looking for near zero continuity between two of the terminals. If you locate terminals with about 400 ohms resistance, you've located the coil terminals. Applying +12 volts and ground to the coil contacts (Terminals 85 and 86) should engage the relay. Look for near zero continuity between one of the previous contact terminals (the common terminal designated 30) and the other terminal. If you can't find this continuity, then it is probable that the relay contacts have failed. The bad relay must be replaced.
If the realys test OK individually, test the circuit in-situ by connecting yo12 volts and ground to the UP relay coil. The motor should rotate in the Up direction. If it does not, then there is a broken wire in the motor circuit. Do the same for the DOWN relay. The same conclusions can be drawn if the motor does not move in the Down direction.
What's left after these tests are performed and succeeed is the limit switch circuit.
Above is the micro limit switches on the motor gear housing. The mircoswitches are stacked and there are two cam followers -- one for UP and the other for DOWN. The cam follower allows the microswitch to open when the mechanical limit is reached. in any other position, there is continuity between all three wires -- brown, yellow/black and yellow/brown. At Up limit, there should be open circuit between brown and yellow/black. In Down limit, there should be open circuit between brown and yellow/brown. Any other continuity reading may indicate bad switches or mechanical problems like the cam follower is stcuk because of dirt.
Try these tests to isolate your failing component. Good luck.
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- Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer |
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Al.
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 397
Location: West of Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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are the tubes clean - my screen locked solid because the tubes were rusty inside. I tried to clean them out but I had to get new ones.
If it moves one way only and then not at all - sounds to me maybe seized. |
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robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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No, the mechanism has all been dismantled and cleaned a few months ago when I first started having problems. Odds are its a relay based on the symptoms - i.e. works in on direction, swap the relays and works in the other direction. New relays should hopefully arrive today, then we'll see.
BTW thanks to rbm for the detailed explanation - that deserves to be a tech sticky.
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David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
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robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Update - new relay arrived; seems I only ordered one where I meant to order two Plugged it in on the side where I couldn't feel the relay clicking and we now have a fully functioning screen 
Just to offset that good news, I managed to drop my System V helmet whilst preparing for a test ride and ruined another $100 visor. Why does it always manage to fall visor side down</rhetoric> Obviously the helmets are made of recycled cats!
Anyway, a big thanks to all those who provided advice on this problem.
Here, have one on me: 
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David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
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rbm
Mad Brick Rider
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Great news that the screen is functioning again.
Your failure echos similar failures I've read about on other K-bike forums. The motor is a reactive load and draws large reactive current from the electrical system through the relay contacts while under load. If you try to move the windshield up while at speed, the additional wind load causes the realy contacts to burn out via sparking that happens when the switch is released or limit reached. It is more likely to kill the Up relay than the Down relay. In the down direction, the wind is assisting the motor; in the up direction, the motor is fighting the wind.
Thanks for the beer -- goes down good in this heat.
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- Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer |
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Tony627
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Kent, England
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard that I can replace the screen motor with one that was fitted to a peugeot car. Has anyone any knowledge of this?
Many thanks
Tony
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Mystic Red
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2330
Location: Twin Lakes Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why does it always manage to fall visor side down</rhetoric> Obviously the helmets are made of recycled cats! |
Ever drop a piece of toast?
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Scott Hespelt, '94 K11LT
K11 OG #466 |
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drikko
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Posts: 1966
Location: Brisbane, OZ
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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If you stick the piece of toast to the back of the helmet you will never break another visor.
Good to hear it's fixed, now you can slowly lower the screen as you get older and shorter.
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K1100RS '97
Laverda RGS 1000 '84
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DISCLAIMER:- Anything I say may have been when I was drunk so please don't take it personally.
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Tim (Midland Section)
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 960
Location: Pinxton, Nottingham, England.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony627 wrote: | I have heard that I can replace the screen motor with one that was fitted to a peugeot car. Has anyone any knowledge of this?
Tony |
IIRC, Pug 306 electric window motors are the ones.
In all my years of K11's never had screen electric faults despite raising & lowering at speed. IMHO roasted relays come from poor servicing & lack of lubrication.
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Grey haired riders don't get that way by pure luck
1996 Guzzi Cali3 LAPD
1972 750 Commando
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rbm
Mad Brick Rider
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Tim (Midland Section) wrote: | | In all my years of K11's never had screen electric faults despite raising & lowering at speed. IMHO roasted relays come from poor servicing & lack of lubrication. |
Very true. Poorly maintained gide rods and sliders will put more of a load on the motor, causing excessive current draw resluting in either blown fuses or failed components.
This topic was also recently discussed on the K100 forums at k100rt.aforumfree.com. Bert (Crazy Frog) mentioned that he used a 7.5A fused circuit for powering his windshield motor but experienced blown fuses often when raising the windshield over 100 Km/H. Moving the windshield to a 15A fused circuit cured the problem. The blown fuses could be explained if the circuit was operating near the rated capacity and a small additional load on the motor caused a current draw that exceeded the fuse's capacity. It does indicate that wind puts a load on the motor and it could be a probable mode for Up relay contact failure, should taht happen repeatedly. In any case, over-fusing the motor circuit and over-specing the relays will cure this problem.
I plan on installing an Eastern Beaver auxillary fuse panel in my K100RT in future and dedicating a circuit to the windshield. I will also periodically spray the guide rods with silicone spray as recommended by BMW.
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- Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer |
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whyoldbill
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 440
Location: in the boonies, northwest of Columbus, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| rbm wrote: | | In any case, over-fusing the motor circuit and over-specing the relays will cure this problem. |
I respectfully disagree. Over-fusing a circuit, any circuit, is playing with fire, literally.
If the load is causing the fuse to blow, the load is the problem, not the fuse. Fix the problem, not the symptom.
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'02 - GL1800
The desired effect is what you get when you improve your interplanetary funksmanship - George Clinton |
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 10102
Location: Bumf***, WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| whyoldbill wrote: | I respectfully disagree. Over-fusing a circuit, any circuit, is playing with fire, literally.
If the load is causing the fuse to blow, the load is the problem, not the fuse. Fix the problem, not the symptom. |
Agreed. As spec'd, fuses already have some added leeway so if you're blowing fuses it's best to cure the problem, not the symptom, especially in the case of fuses.
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94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
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rbm
Mad Brick Rider
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| whyoldbill wrote: | I respectfully disagree. Over-fusing a circuit, any circuit, is playing with fire, literally.
If the load is causing the fuse to blow, the load is the problem, not the fuse. Fix the problem, not the symptom. |
I appologize for use of the wrong word -- overfusing. I do not condone overfusing any circuit -- putting a fuse in a circuit allowing it to deliver current for which the wire gauge is not designed. What I meant was connecting the motor to a circuit which is designed to deliver more current safely. I don't have a word for that unfortunately.
If it were available, reactive loads should be protected with a fuse that has the proper profile to accomodate the instantaneous startup current. That means slow-blow fuses. I don't believe there are slo-blow fuses made for automotive / motorcycle applications anyways.
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1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer |
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Jim
Site Admin
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 3841
Location: WHERETHEFUNNEVERENDS
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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I clean and lube the windshield works every spring. I don't use silicone - I use DuPont teflon. I raise and lower the screen as wanted/needed - never had a problem.
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Jim
1997 K1100LTSE 94,000 - still has gremlins!
1995 R100RT Classic 16,650 crashed - repaired!
1992 K75RTP 46,000
"We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed." |
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whyoldbill
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 440
Location: in the boonies, northwest of Columbus, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| rbm wrote: | | connecting the motor to a circuit which is designed to deliver more current safely. |
Now that makes sense! Whew, I'm glad you cleared that up.
| Quote: | | I don't believe there are slo-blow fuses made for automotive / motorcycle applications anyways. |
I haven't looked for them for a long time, but I have purchased automotive slo-blow fuses in the past.
I've just kept my slide rails lubricated and have never had a bit of trouble.
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'02 - GL1800
The desired effect is what you get when you improve your interplanetary funksmanship - George Clinton |
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laverda
Mad Brick Rider
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim wrote: | I clean and lube the windshield works every spring. I don't use silicone - I use DuPont teflon. | whyoldbill wrote: |
I've just kept my slide rails lubricated and have never had a bit of trouble. |
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How easy is it to lubricate the rails etc... when in situ (With nowt removed). Is it feasible ?
I can't check as my screen, motor, instruments are currently removed from my bike.
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"A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing." |
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whyoldbill
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 440
Location: in the boonies, northwest of Columbus, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| laverda wrote: | How easy is it to lubricate the rails etc... when in situ (With nowt removed). Is it feasible ?
I can't check as my screen, motor, instruments are currently removed from my bike. |
On my LT, all I do is drop the cover off the back of the fairing, clean the rails with some alcohol, and then just spray some silicone on them. Can't speak for the RS though.
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'02 - GL1800
The desired effect is what you get when you improve your interplanetary funksmanship - George Clinton |
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